After Xue Xiang's answer, the entire audience fell into silence.
The people watching felt a sense of enlightenment, as if they had suddenly learned a lot of knowledge. Although this hearing had been held many times, it was the first time that they were exposed to the operating mechanism of national finance.
In the feudal era, this was almost impossible.
Even those shrewd businessmen were shocked when they came into contact with this kind of macroeconomic control for the first time.
The key point is that Xue Xiang used a very profound and simple way of explaining this issue. Even ordinary people who cannot read or write can understand everything.
The officials present, even Sima Guang, Fan Chunren, and Su Shi, who were very opposed to Xue Xiang, had to admit at this moment that Xue Xiang was capable and did not just rely on flattery and opportunism to get to the position.
It can only be said that times make heroes. In history, although Xue Xiang had good political achievements, he was limited by the environment and could only be short-lived in the end.
Now that times have changed, his talents are a perfect match for the current environment, and he will naturally be able to shine.
In just a few sentences, the complicated interest relationship was explained very clearly and logically, making Su Shi and the others frown in thought.
Are there really so many benefits?
Or is this a deception?
Zhao Xu, who was sitting in the inner hall, was also thoughtful. Although he had talked with Xue Xiang before, Zhang Fei was missing from the process. The questions and answers just now could still give him some new inspiration.
As the host, Zhang Fei, of course, would not let Xue Xiang get away with it like this. He suddenly picked up a newspaper and said, "This is an article about taxes and currencies published by Qizhou Prosecutor General Su in the celebrity newspaper a few days ago. I wonder if Third Secretary has read the article?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "I've seen it."
Su Shi immediately cheered up. He also wanted to know how Xue Xiang would face these problems. In his opinion, these problems are difficult to solve, because this is all known to human nature. Making money by issuing paper money means getting something for nothing. Who can resist this temptation.
“In this article, Attorney General Su mentioned many disadvantages of tax coins.”
Having said this, Zhang Fei still lowered his head and said, "First of all, Prosecutor General Su took the tax coins and compared them with Jiaozi. In the first year of Tiansheng, the imperial court established Jiaoziwu in Yizhou with a capital of 360,000 yuan. , the first issue of "Guanjiaozi" was 1.26 million yuan. Although the capital was less than 30% compared to the number of issued Jiaozi, about 28%. But at least the court still had capital, and as for tax coins, the Third Division was When it was announced, the cost was not mentioned.”
Xue Xiang replied: "I just said that the tax currency is just a voucher that can be used to pay taxes to the country, and it is only in the process of paying taxes. The face value of the tax currency is equal to copper coins. The Third Secretary has never said this. The tax currency is Jiaozi, which can be exchanged for copper coins at any time, so no capital is required."
Zhang Fei said: "What the third minister means is that tax coins and copper coins cannot be exchanged."
Xue Xiang organized his words for a while before answering cautiously: "The court has no guarantee that the people holding tax coins will be able to exchange them for copper coins from the court or anyone else. Of course, the court may exchange them for copper coins at some time in the future. , use copper coins to purchase private tax coins, and the imperial court does not object to private exchanges among the common people."
I do not admit that tax coins are equivalent to currency, but if you want to use them as currency, we have no objection to this.
As soon as these words came out, everyone looked at each other again, with worry in their brows.
It turns out that tax coins cannot be exchanged for copper coins at will.
this..
Su Shi also frowned.
He has always regarded tax coins and Jiaozi as equal, but they are called differently. But according to Xue Xiang's explanation, they are completely different!
It's something else!
Then his question seemed a bit wrong.
Tax coins are not directly related to copper coins, but in the process of paying taxes, the face value of tax coins is equal to the same amount of copper coins.
Zhang Fei also expressed doubts: "As we all know, the development of local government affairs is not good, and this is even when there is capital. Nowadays, tax coins have no capital, so why do people believe in this tax coin? , and willing to use it.”
Everyone nodded in unison. This was a bit too deceptive. It sounded like it was better than Jiaozi!
Xue Xiangdao: "Actually, the reason why we issue tax coins without preparing capital is to learn from the lessons of Jiaoziwu. We believe that people are more willing to use tax coins instead of Jiaozi."
After the people heard this, they immediately felt like they were believed.
Why do you believe that?
"Really?" Zhang Fei also asked curiously: "Can the Third Secretary please elaborate on this?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said: "Jiaozi appeared because businessmen and wealthy households deposited money in money shops and received a voucher. Later, everyone gradually discovered that since this voucher can be used to receive money at any time, it is better to use the voucher directly Transaction, thus giving birth to Jiaozi.
Then there was a crisis. For various reasons, some merchants in Jiaozipu spent all the money they had saved, resulting in Jiaozi not being able to get the money, or running away with the money secretly.
Obviously, the problem here is that no one can guarantee that the money can be withdrawn at any time. Although the current public prosecutors and law can supervise it, if the owner of Jiaozipu runs away or dies, the people can only accept compensation. , if it was a Jiaozi shop opened by a businessman, the state would not be able to pay compensation on his behalf.
But the tax currency is different from Jiaozi, because every common person must pay taxes every year, and the tax currency is the tax certificate issued to them by the court. Both sides have control over the other. If the court issues excessively or excessively, the court will There will also be heavy losses, which will force the court to treat it with caution.
Secondly, since there are certificates, the law can better protect both parties, and the rights and interests of both parties must be more equal. "
When he said this, the people felt that it made sense, and the tax currency was more reliable than Jiaozi.
Zhang Fei nodded: "Indeed, some unscrupulous businessmen who run Jiaozi shops have bad intentions and run away with money. If they don't catch the people, it will be difficult for the judiciary to compensate the people. Tax coins can indeed do a better job, because tax coins If something goes wrong, the court's tax revenue will inevitably be subject to violent turmoil, and the tax revenue will affect the operation of the court, and at the same time, the law can better provide protection for the people."
"exactly."
Xue Xiang nodded and said: "Prosecutor Su also mentioned in the article another disadvantage of Jiaoziwu, which is that when everyone comes to withdraw money, if the capital is insufficient, it will lead to a loss of credibility, which will make Jiaozi Shop close the door.
Tax coins don’t have this problem either. Last year we collected 80% of the tax coins, but it didn’t cause any problems. If it was Jiaozipu, it would definitely be over. "
Su Shi frowned, shook his head, and said to himself: "But if enough is issued in a short period of time, which is more than ten times the annual tax revenue, the people will still suffer losses, and the imperial court will be able to collect all the wealth from the people. .”
Fan Chunren said: "Can legislation prohibit the issuance of too many tax coins?"
Su Shi glanced at Fan Chunren and said nothing.
Zhang Fei smiled and said: "I know that the Third Secretary has read Prosecutor General Su's article, but it is best to wait until I ask before answering."
Xue Xiang was stunned for a moment, and then said: "Sorry."
This brat. Zhao Pian glanced at Zhang Fei and almost laughed.
Zhang Fei coughed and continued to ask: "Prosecutor Su also mentioned in the article about the issuance of tax coins. Although Jiaoziwu issues Jiaozi, it is often three to four times the capital, but there are rules. The calculation is based on capital, and the Third Division has just determined that tax coins have no capital. So how does the Third Division calculate how many tax coins should be issued, and how to convince everyone that there will be no indiscriminate issuance of tax coins? phenomenon, causing serious losses to the people.
Although the Third Secretary has explained that the imperial court will suffer losses if tax coins are issued indiscriminately, but if the imperial court issues tax coins that are several times the tax revenue, the people will only be able to pay so many tax coins, so the tax coins will remain in their hands. The value will inevitably plummet. "
Su Shi nodded after hearing this.
Xue Xiang replied: "Since it is a tax currency, it is naturally related to taxes. I have just said that in the past, people used silk and grain to pay taxes, and the court then distributed these to officials. Now it is just a tax payment by the court. Give the coins to the officials, and the officials will buy them from the people, and the people will get the tax coins and give them to the court."
Zhang Fei asked: "So, the court can issue as many tax coins as it collects taxes?"
Xue Xiang shook his head and said: "It's not that simple. Tax revenue is only a guarantee for tax coins. The situation just mentioned by Prosecutor Zhang has destroyed this guarantee. Of course, the imperial court will not issue so many tax coins. But how many tax coins will be issued specifically? , not based on tax revenue, but based on private demand for coins and commercial development.
As mentioned below, the reason for issuing tax coins this time is due to the shortage of money, and the shortage of money has always troubled our dynasty and has many harms.
We do this to help the people and save the country at the same time. As Wang Xianggong mentioned, the concept is that the people do not add taxes and the country uses money. "
Wang Anshi smiled slightly. He liked the flattery very much.
Sima Guang and the others just rolled their eyes. It's true that a dog can't change its habit of eating shit. In their opinion, this flattery is too blunt!
I heard Xue Xiang continue to say: "In addition, according to my observation of Hezhong Prefecture, the appropriate issuance of some salt banknotes can promote commercial development, but if there are too many, even if it is not as much as what Zhang Prosecutor said, it will also affect the development of business." The credibility of tax coins, and the development of business.
Therefore, when there is a shortage of currency in the market, we will issue more. When there is no shortage of tax coins in the market, we will issue less or even none. When business development is unfavorable, we will even use coins. Purchase tax coins. "
"That sounds very complicated."
Zhang Fei said: "It may be possible to observe whether the people have demand for coins. For example, the current money shortage means that the people are short of coins. But what I want to know is, how does the Third Division judge how much to issue? And how to buy it? How much will you pay back?”
Xue Xiang hesitated a little and said: "To be honest with Zhang Prosecutor, in fact, our three divisions are currently groping and have not yet found an accurate calculation method."
Zhang Fei said: "So the 3.2 million guan announced by the Third Division is just the lucky number of the Third Division?"
"Ha ha!"
As soon as these words came out, there was a burst of laughter, and the original serious atmosphere disappeared in an instant.
Even Zhao Xu was stunned for a moment, then shook his head with a wry smile.
"quiet!"
Xu Zun banged the hammer several times and said to Zhang Fei: "Prosecutor Zhang, please pay attention to your words. This is not a court trial."
Zhao Pian immediately turned his head to look at Xu Zun.
What's the meaning?
You can be so frivolous in the imperial court.
Xu Zun also reacted and quickly added: "This cannot be the case in court trials."
There is majesty in his eyes, boy, you are trying to trick your father-in-law, I am the nominal host!
Zhang Fei whispered: "I'm not kidding. He was so confident when he said it before, but in the end he didn't even have a calculation method. I have to ridicule him a few times. We are not that easy to fool."
Zhao Pian nodded and said, "It makes sense."
Xu Zun saw that Zhao Bian had already said this, so he naturally didn't say more.
"It doesn't matter! It doesn't matter! It is reasonable for Prosecutor Zhang to be confused."
Not only was Xue Xiang not angry, but he took the initiative to help Zhang Fei.
Zhang Fei smiled and said: "Thank you, Third Secretary, for your understanding."
Xue Xiang replied seriously: "First of all, these 3.2 million yuan are certainly not my lucky number. I also admit that this is not an accurate number.
However, this is a very conservative number. When we compare the tax revenue from last year to previous years, as far as Gyeonggi Province is concerned, last year’s tax revenue, in tax dollars plus coins, was about 200 more than the coins collected in previous years. Three hundred thousand dollars.
These were supposed to be turned over, but now that the people have not turned them over, they need to sell these good goods, and the buyers should be officials and soldiers. I have just mentioned the agricultural principles.
Although we have not found a specific calculation method, we have found some clues based on last year's situation and the financial changes of Hezhong Prefecture. For example, if we analyze from the commercial tax, as the commercial tax increases, there will naturally be a demand for more Tax coins, if business taxes are reduced, tax coins should be purchased back.
There was a significant increase in commercial taxes last year, and we are currently facing a money shortage. Even if we issue three million yuan in Gyeonggi, it is actually not too much.
More importantly, the court did not issue tax coins because of a lack of money. Although the court issued five million coins for disaster relief last year, that was all the money the court had recently saved due to Wang Xianggong's reforms. "
Zhang Fei immediately asked: "Then why didn't three million strings be issued in Gyeonggi?"
Xue Xiang replied: "This is because we expect that when the imperial court issues tax coins, the value of the coins will decrease, and more people may take out the coins, but it is not yet known how many coins will be released.
Therefore, in the notice we published, we emphasized that the 3.2 million coins will not be distributed all at once, but in batches. The purpose is to observe the people's demand for coins. If there is no demand, the court will also Stop immediately.
As I just said, this tax and currency plan is aimed at serving the country and the people, rather than making money for the country. We will still put the people first.
This is also the expectation mentioned by the officials at the end of last year, which is to focus on internal affairs, restore people's power, and achieve peace and prosperity for the country and the people. "
These words actually won many people to nod and praise.
Of course Zhao Xu was also very satisfied.
If you can speak, speak more.
Zhang Fei nodded and said: "I also know that today's Holy Emperor is very concerned about people's livelihood, but since the Third Secretary said that the court is not short of money, why not wait until we find out clearly before issuing tax coins? Isn't this more practical?" Is it appropriate?"
Xue Xiang replied: "If we don't issue tax coins, we will never know how to accurately calculate when and how many coins should be issued and when and how many coins should be bought back. This issuance of tax coins is just A tentative one-time payment of 3.2 million yuan, the imperial court can still provide sufficient guarantee."
Zhang Fei asked: "How many years of testing will it take?"
Xue Xiang replied: "It will take at least two or three years, but within these two or three years, we will decide whether to issue tax coins based on the people's demand for coins, rather than saying how many tax coins should be issued every year.
After gaining experience, we will make all calculations openly and honestly, without hiding them from anyone, and we will also cooperate with the investigation by the public prosecutor and the law.
Because for the imperial court, let alone anything else, the increase in business taxes and the savings and losses brought by the tax coins alone are very amazing. We will not take risks for this and use the indiscriminate issuance of tax coins to make temporary wealth. "
Zhang Fei asked: "But the moon waxes and wanes, and people have misfortunes and blessings. If there is a natural disaster or a war, when the court is in urgent need of money, how can the three envoys ensure that the court will not issue tax coins indiscriminately? Come and get more finances in a short period of time.
As far as I know, the failure of some handovers in Shaanxi actually stemmed from the war, not from a corrupt official. "
Sima Guang and Su Shi nodded frequently when they heard this.
This is what worries them the most.
In normal times, they also believed that the court would not issue tax coins indiscriminately, but the Song Dynasty's finances had already been in deficit before. If there was another war, the finances would become very tight. Issuing tax coins was obviously a way to make money quickly. Best means.
This is how the job of handing over children is done. When it comes to risking one's life, who cares so much? They can't stop it!
They don't want to talk about it.
Xue Xiang replied: "Our Third Division has actually thought about the situation mentioned by Prosecutor Zhang and studied it carefully. We found that the salt debt of Hezhong Prefecture is more suitable to deal with this situation.
When everyone has money in urgent need, whether it is a natural disaster or a war, almost everyone chooses to borrow money. Of course, the court can also choose to borrow money. Besides, it is also used to protect our people of the Song Dynasty, so it is not something unspeakable. Things.
Although it has not yet been decided, if there is an urgent need for money, I suggest that the court issue debts instead of issuing tax coins indiscriminately. "
Zhang Fei said: "Debt contracts also abide by the contract law, that is, you and I are willing. If the court issues debts, the people may not sell them."
Xue Xiangdao: "For example, the Hezhong Prefecture's salt debt does not force everyone to buy it, but many people buy it because it carries interest. If it is profitable, someone will always buy it.
If anyone is worried that the court will not pay the money, then he will definitely not lend the money to anyone. Who in the world has the money if the court has money? "
Zhang Fei asked: "But the imperial court also has fixed expenditures every year. As far as I know, before the emperor launched Wang Xianggong's reform, the imperial court's finances could not make ends meet."
Xue Xiangdao: "But now that there is a reorganization bill, and this article has been written into the interim law, if the court cannot make ends meet, it can find ways to save expenses. As long as it is reasonably arranged, it will definitely be able to pay off the debt. This is better than lending money to Those wealthy people will be safer."
Zhang Fei nodded and asked: "Shicai Third Secretary said that if it were him, would he suggest that the court issue debts similar to salt debts?"
"Yes."
Xue Xiang nodded.
Zhang Fei asked again: "But according to the system of our dynasty, it is impossible for the Third Secretary to stay in the Third Division forever. If the next Third Secretary does not think the same as the Third Secretary, what should we do?"
Moreover, there is a precedent for this. When Fan Xiang and Fan Yuanyuan were in charge of the salt administration in Hezhong Prefecture, the implementation of the salt banknote law was very smooth. However, when Fan Yuanyuan left Hezhong Prefecture, the situation took a turn for the worse. Some salt merchants The salt banknotes suffered considerable losses, but the situation improved again after the three ministers left.
At that time, the salt banknotes only affected some salt merchants, so it was not particularly troublesome. However, the tax coins were related to every common person. Have the Third Secretary thought about how to prevent this situation from happening? In other words, it is to ensure the continuity of the policy rather than to change the policy. "
Su Shi wondered: "Why does he keep using Hezhong Mansion as an example?"
Sima Guang said: "He only served as the president of the Hezhong Mansion for a few years."
Su Shi nodded.
Xue Xiang nodded and said: "Of course I have thought about this problem. To tell you the truth, I can't actually prevent this situation. The only suggestion I can give is to legislate it. Hezhong Mansion is the best example, especially now. With the separation of politics and law, the public security organs, prosecutors and law can defend the law and will not be easily destroyed."
Zhang Fei nodded and said seriously: "It makes sense. This is indeed a good idea."
Xue Xiang smiled.
Many dignitaries cast disdainful glances at Zhang Fei and Xue Xiang.
Why are we still talking professionally?
Zhang Fei lowered his head and glanced at the copy, then asked: "According to the plan announced by the Third Division, one million yuan will be used in Hebei?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "Yes."
Zhang Fei said: "But there is currently no news. We know that there is also a money shortage in Hebei."
Xue Xiangdao: "There is no money shortage in Hebei. That's because the people's livelihood in Hebei is already in decline. Judging from last year's tax revenue, the tax revenue of the disaster-stricken areas has not decreased much. Only the situation in Hebei is still relatively serious, and the Holy Spirit He also cares very much about the people in Hebei, so the Holy One has decided to allocate one million yuan to the Hebei area to continue to provide relief through work, in order to help the people obtain more livelihoods and restore the people's strength in Hebei."
This actually won the approval of Fu Bi and Wen Yanbo. To resist the Liao Kingdom, Hebei was crucial. Currently, the Liao Kingdom continued to exert pressure, and it was indeed necessary to help Hebei restore its people's power as soon as possible.
Zhang Fei asked again: "If the three departments successfully release the tax coins, will the tax coins be used nationwide? Or will they be limited to the Gyeonggi area?"
Xue Xiangdao: "It's not universal across the country, nor is it limited to Gyeonggi Province, or the scope of last year's disaster area, because they used tax coins last year, and the local officials are very aware of tax coins, so they won't run into trouble when they collect taxes." . Other states and counties do not know the tax currency, so for the time being, tax coins cannot be used to pay taxes in those states and counties. We will announce the specific states and counties in use soon."
Zhang Fei asked: "In this case, have the three envoys ever thought about how businessmen from other places should deal with tax coins when they come to the capital to do business?"
Xue Xiangdao: "First of all, most of the merchants who come to the capital to do business will buy some goods and go back. I also suggest that they exchange them for goods, because the current tax and currency system is not perfect yet. But if they want to exchange them for money, then in Qizhou, Qingzhou, Hezhong Prefecture, and other prefectures and counties where Majia Jiekupu is located can exchange money from there, because the imperial court has always cooperated with Majia, and Majia has a lot of money-making businesses. Foreign businessmen can deposit their tax coins into the Majia Jieku Shop in the capital, and then take the voucher to other Majia Jieku Shops to withdraw it."
Zhang Fei nodded slightly and asked Zhao Pian, Cao Dongdong and Xu Zun: "Do you three have anything else to ask?"
On this economic issue, Zhao Pian and Xu Zunzhen are not much better than Cao Dongdong. They still have some problems and have not turned around. They all shake their heads in confusion.
Zhang Fei then said to Xue Xiang: "Thank you very much for coming here to explain to us."
Xue Xiang said hurriedly: "This is a matter within my job."
Zhang Fei said loudly: "Today's hearing ends here."
