After the basic provisions for aircraft carriers were settled, negotiations on the Atlantic-Spanish Naval Treaty were briefly suspended for two days.
The meeting was held again two days later, and Talleyrand, as the host, spoke first:
“The main agenda of today’s meeting is to finalize the specifications of the cruiser.
“According to the previously determined specifications of capital ships, armored cruisers have been included in the category of capital ships.
“Warships with a full load displacement of more than 10,000 tons and a main gun caliber exceeding 160 mm should be regarded as capital ships.
"Then the standard upper limit for cruisers stipulated in our treaty is naturally that the full load displacement does not exceed 10,000 tons, and the main gun caliber does not exceed 160 millimeters.
“The question now is where should the lower limit of a cruiser be set and how should it be distinguished from lower-level destroyers.
“Let me first talk about what we know about the Ming Dynasty, which can be used as a reference target for us to formulate standards.
“The Ming Navy’s ship system has undergone tremendous changes in the past seven years.
"The new high-speed cruiser, which was born at the same time as the new high-speed battleship, has a tonnage of more than 15,000 tons. This has actually reached the standard of traditional battleships. Traditional armored cruisers cannot reach this level.
“These new cruisers all have a speed of over thirty knots, but they are only equipped with a 160mm main gun.
"The actual tasks of these ships in the Ming Dynasty's naval system should be close to the five to six thousand ton secondary cruisers in the traditional navy. Their names in the Ming Dynasty are just ordinary 'cruisers'.
"Then there is the new destroyer, which Ming Dynasty calls a 'high-speed destroyer'. Its full load displacement has exceeded three thousand tons, and is probably close to four thousand tons. This is obviously the level of a cruiser among the navies of our European countries.
"The situation of these high-speed destroyers in Ming Dynasty is similar to that of high-end cruisers. Their speeds have all reached thirty knots. They can follow the main fleet in combat, but the caliber of their main guns does not exceed 120 millimeters.
"Finally, there is Ming Dynasty's new escort destroyer, which is a small ship with a displacement usually less than two thousand tons, a speed usually less than twenty-five knots, and a main gun caliber less than one hundred millimeters. It is usually used for patrol escort missions. It is called an escort ship for short. Frigate.
"In the traditional naval ship system, the tonnage of destroyers is usually only about one thousand tons...
“Our European navies are all building their own naval systems with reference to the Ming Dynasty’s new ship system. However, the situations of the European countries are very different from those of the Ming Dynasty, and they should not be copied blindly.
"To put it bluntly, we don't have the ability to use a 15,000-ton ship as an ordinary cruiser, nor do we have the ability to use a 3,500-ton ship as a destroyer.
“So, I still recommend that we continue to refer to our previous plan for dealing with capital ships and list high-speed destroyers in the Ming sense as our cruisers.
“In other words, combat ships with a full load displacement of 2,000 to 10,000 tons and a main gun caliber of 120 to 160 mm are included in the category of cruisers.
“Small ships with a full load displacement of no more than 2,000 tons and a main gun caliber of no more than 120 mm are defined as our naval treaty destroyers.
"The differences between ships used for patrol and escort are too small and they are merged into the category of treaty destroyers.
"If you have no objections, we will discuss the gross tonnage standard of cruisers based on this standard."
After Talleyrand finished speaking, he looked at the other representatives, waiting for their reactions.
After hearing this, the representatives from various countries did not speak immediately, but each murmured to their companions.
Most representatives did not see any major problems with this norm.
Talleyrand said it very straightforwardly. Seven years ago, traditional destroyers only had about a thousand tons, traditional cruisers usually only had two thousand to six thousand tons, and armored cruisers may not exceed ten thousand tons.
In fact, during the World War, Britain's largest battleship had a tonnage of just over 15,000 tons.
After the war, the Ming Navy's ship levels expanded rapidly, directly competing with the traditional navy by a large level.
Nowadays, ships of 15,000 tons are just conventional cruisers, and ships of less than 4,000 tons are considered destroyers.
Although countries in Europe and the West are learning from the Ming Dynasty, they are unable to compete on this issue.
Otherwise, the proposal to include armored cruisers in the category of battleships would not be so easy to pass.
The actual effect of this suggestion is to put the "heavy cruisers" that have not yet appeared in this world directly into the battleships according to the official definition.
In the original history, heavy cruisers were regarded as secondary battleships in countries that were not the strongest navies.
Now they may no longer be called "heavy cruisers", but they have gained a more formal identity.
If a country is willing to build a ship of this level, there will be no restrictions in history.
The range can be completely defined, starting with a full load displacement of 10,000 tons and a gun caliber of 160 mm, up to a full load displacement of 40,000 tons and a gun caliber of 360 mm.
However, as long as experienced naval generals and engineers will gradually discover the existence of the "medium ship trap".
It is conceivable that the final choice of most naval countries should be to build top-notch high-speed battleships instead of "large, advanced, heavy" cruisers.
The original "heavy cruiser" in history was actually a product with limitations of the times that was spawned by the Naval Treaty.
Now the new proposals put forward by the French based on this premise have not met with any opposition. Representatives from various countries have successively stated that they can accept such a premise for discussion.
There must be a premise before we can discuss it.
Talleyrand confirmed the opinions of all representatives in turn, announced that this standard would be included in the formal treaty text after being refined, and then entered the next step:
“Based on the current situation and the standards we have set, our original armored cruisers, as well as the new high-speed advanced cruisers that may be designed and constructed with reference to the Ming Dynasty, are included in the category of capital ships, occupying the tonnage of the capital ships.
“At the same time, aircraft carriers, which should originally belong to the category of cruisers, have also been allocated separate tonnage shares.
“So the tonnage of our cruisers should be sufficiently limited relative to the actual situation.
"My suggestion is that the total tonnage of cruisers in each country should not exceed 80,000 tons."
Now that the specific amount is being discussed, Talleyrand's words will not receive so much approval.
Lucia's Wedemeyer objected directly without hesitation:
“Everyone knows the purpose of including armored cruisers and advanced cruisers as battleships, even if I don’t say it.
“There may be countries that use the tonnage of capital ships to build new large cruisers, but we in Lucia will not do that.
“Most of our 320,000-ton capital ships in Lucia are only new high-speed battleships.
“So in our opinion, the tonnage of cruisers stipulated in the treaty should meet our actual needs.
"We require a dedicated tonnage share for cruisers of at least 240,000 tons."
Prussian Hardenberg hesitated for a few seconds and then expressed his agreement:
"Our capital ship tonnage will also be used normally for the construction of capital ships, so we also support relaxing the cruiser tonnage limit to 240,000 tons."
The Prussians agreed with Lucia's opinion, but the Lucians were not happy at all.
The approval in this case does not indicate at all how good the relationship between the Prussians and the Lucians is. Instead, it shows that the Prussians regard the Lucians as potential competitors that should be actively targeted.
You build a 320,000-ton battleship, and I will build a 320,000-ton battleship. You want a 240,000-ton cruiser, and I also want a 240,000-ton cruiser. I cannot discount anything.
I will follow you no matter what you do!
So Lucia's Wedemeyer subconsciously frowned and looked over when he heard Prussia's Hardenberg's voice.
Hardenberg responded with a very polite and faint smile, as if to say, "No need to thank me for my support."
Talleyrand frowned and glanced at the British and Spanish, wondering if you would come out and say a few words?
The situation of the French, English and Spanish is similar to that of Prussia and Lucia.
They may be competitors in actual relationships, but they tend to agree with each other on the goals of negotiation.
Therefore, although the British Grenville felt uncomfortable, he still cooperated and spoke after receiving Talleyrand's eyes:
"The new generation of high-speed battleships generally have a tonnage of 40,000 tons, which has opened a huge gap between cruisers and other escort ships.
“So the tonnage ratio of new cruisers to capital ships cannot refer to the traditional ratio of capital ships to escort ships.
“The 240,000-ton cruiser, plus the 80,000-ton aircraft carrier, has exceeded the 320,000-ton capital ship.
“This is obviously beyond the actual needs of the normal navy.
"Let me put it this way, if you Lucians really build ordinary cruisers totaling 240,000 tons, you will not be able to play their actual role at all.
“After all, you Lucians don’t have large, complex, and scattered colonies like the Ming Dynasty.
“The limit of 240,000 tons is equivalent to no limit in the current navy.
"According to our experience, excluding high-end cruisers, compared to the 320,000-ton battleship, the total tonnage of ordinary cruisers of 100,000 tons is completely sufficient.
“Even our United Kingdom, which owns three colonies: Southern Tianzhu, Southwest Mexico, and America, believes that the exclusive quota for cruisers totaling 100,000 tons is enough.
"So we in the UK propose to limit the total tonnage of cruisers to 100,000 tons."
In fact, for Britain, a 100,000-ton cruiser is certainly enough.
But Grenville knew that now was the bargaining stage, and he would either shout one hundred thousand tons or one hundred thousand tons.
The Lucians must keep shouting.
I and the French will make some more concessions later on, and finally set the figure in the range of 150,000 to 60,000.
In addition, the UK has already planned to use part of the capital ship tonnage to build cruisers, so this share is almost just right.
However, the superiority of the traditional naval nation implicit in Grenville's words made the Lucians a little unhappy.
Wedemeyer also did not shy away from it, and from another angle, he mocked back very bluntly:
“The standard for a cruiser is 10,000 tons, and the share of 100,000 tons is only ten.
“The standard for high-speed battleships is 40,000 tons, and our capital ship share of 320,000 tons can already build eight.
“There are also aircraft carriers of 84,000 tons, and a single ship of 28,000 tons is already considered a capital ship.
"So eleven capital ships are paired with ten cruisers. Is this how you British naval experience is used to match the fleet?
“According to the advice of the Ming craftsmen, a 100,000-ton cruiser is definitely not enough for us, Lucia.
"You British...it's not that you don't need a 240,000-ton cruiser, but you can't, right?"
This is very straightforward. It is simply impossible for a 320,000-ton battleship to be equipped with a 100,000-ton cruiser.
A 40,000-ton battleship, a 10,000-ton cruiser, plus two or three destroyers of less than 2,000 tons?
I'm afraid no admiral would coordinate his fleet like this.
Of course, the British will not match their fleet in this way, because the British plan to use the tonnage of battleships to build cruisers.
But this kind of thing is tacit, even if you say it, you will be embarrassed, so you can only keep it in your heart and feel uncomfortable.
Grenville's expression was a bit ugly. It was difficult to negotiate without money and resources.
If Britain was in good condition, and if there was no Yinzhou War, Britain should be able to build a navy like the Lucians, right?
What should I answer now? It's impossible to tell the truth, no matter how you say it, it will look ugly.
Grenville once again felt that the Prime Minister was very tired, so he might as well resign and retire.
I am already fifty-three years old, and it is time for me to retire.
Of course the French and Spanish wanted to see the British deflated.
But now the three countries can be considered on the same front in negotiations.
When Grenville was criticized by the Lucians, Spanish representative Manuel took up the conversation:
“One hundred thousand tons may be a bit small, but your 240,000 tons really can’t be used up, and it’s really equivalent to no limit.
“So the standard of a 240,000-ton cruiser is impossible.
"Our suggestion is to relax the limit to 160,000 tons at most."
Manuel took the initiative to give in, and to a large extent.
Then the French and British immediately looked at the Spaniard, their eyes seeming to say, are you Spaniards rich?
Then the representatives of the two countries realized that Spain might actually be in better shape than their own two countries.
Spain's consumption in the years of suppressing bandits in Mexico should not be as great as the war between the two countries in Beiyinzhou.
Moreover, when Spain gave up its colony in Nanyinzhou, it took away a large number of people and money.
The Spanish also made a fortune from the trade of reselling Mexican slaves from Nanyinzhou to the United States.
However, Manuel's concession was the Spanish's own concession and could not represent Britain and France.
Britain and France can now stand up against Manuel's proposals.
But Grenville was tired and didn't want to interrupt, so he didn't say anything in the end.
But Talleyrand finally couldn't help but speak:
"Sixteen thousand tons is a bit too much... Our idea in France is not to exceed 120,000 tons..."
As soon as Talleyrand finished speaking, Metternich of Austria suddenly spoke:
“There is actually no need for us to waste too much time and energy on this place.
"After the tonnage of the battleship is determined, everyone knows what the reasonable tonnage of the cruiser is.
“Considering the gross tonnage of capital ships and aircraft carriers, two hundred thousand tons should be a more appropriate gross tonnage of cruisers.
“Countries that do not need so many cruisers, or are preparing to use other methods to supplement their cruiser tonnage, should not think about asking countries with actual needs to give up reasonable needs.
"Countries with actual needs should also consider the actual situation and international relations, and should not put themselves in a position that is opposite to most countries and is jointly guarded.
"So let's all take a step back. Don't shout about 120,000 tons, and don't shout about 240,000 tons. Let's set it according to relatively reasonable standards in theory."
(End of chapter)
